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February 9, 2005
The Latest Batch
I am so glad I was able to turn comments on. Nothing like a little interactivity to spice this little blog up. I am going to try to throw up a batch of responses once a week or so and knock them all out in one shot. Please note that this will be the last I comment about the A 8 hand. It is truly amazing how such a simple play, one which is entirely non-debatable, has been questioned so much. Some people just don’t understand poker and can't understand simple concepts even when its spelled out for them. Those who care about it can either read what I write here and learn from it, or continue with their faulty way of thinking. I don’t care, I am done with it after today. I wouldn’t mention it here, except it is a very valuable concept that anyone who wants to play tournaments should understand.
Anyway let’s start this one off right, with a comment from the blogfather:
nothing came out of it because of yer inability to think about anything but yourself.Actually nothing came out of it for 2 reasons. A) Your preconceptions of me and complete inability to believe that anyone other than Paul Phillips might know something you don’t. And B) the fact that you view the poker blogging community as a revenue stream whereas I view it as a gaggle of nits. I have ever since the Stripper By Night incident, when it became apparent that the “community” (a.k.a. sewing circle) consensus was that it is perfectly OK to flame Felicia post after post but not OK to point out that people’s fascination with the hammer is unprofitable. It is like a group of old ladies, 90% of the whom have little poker or writing talent, and all of whom take themselves far too seriously. Forgive me if I don’t really lie awake at night worrying about what the “poker blogging community” thinks of me.
And btw, you win the award for biggest nit (or as you would say in your pseudo-intellectual jargon “uber-nit”) by simultaneously telling me in instant messenger that you “had my back” and waging a campaign to remove my links from everyone’s site, including your own. All because of an incident incited by my trash talking that you requested. If you want to remove my link that’s fine, but as Judge Judy would say, don’t pee on my leg and tell me it’s raining.
I find that a of people mistake confidence for arrogance. Apparently believing you're better at something than 99% of other people must always be arrogance even when it's obviously just a statement of fact… Anyway, I don't see arrogance or ego when I read your posts.
Thanks!
Don't take this wrong, but you don't need to justify yourself. I am surprised that you seem so bothered by the "blogger communities" opinion of you. You deny that you are bothered one second, you relish in their distain then next, but you then proceed to spend hundreds of words explaining your actions. Why?
Definitely not bothered, just wanted to explain myself to my readers, not the nits. Let y’all know where I'm comin’ from. But the comments show that a lot of people already know.
What makes your blog great is that you write in an unadulterated flow of conciousness. You are expressing real emotions, thoughts, and real opinions about poker. You don't hold back. Your real ego, your real anger, your real reactions to your opponents always come through. It's brilliant. So don't justify, just keep it up.
Thanks! Glad to see somebody gets it.
You said it yourself that you need confidence to play well.
You certainly do. I have seen many excellent players lose a few days in a row and completely give up. Without confidence when the cards start running bad you start thinking things like “Am I playing well? Do I suck at poker?” If anything you have to develop the thick skin, realize that everyone feels as if they are playing terribly when the cards go bad, and try to hold off making any drastic changes in your game until you can see things a bit clearly. All of which is impossible without self-confidence.
Congrats, you are earning your "most hated" award for 2005 already! Keep up the good work! Told you we were in the same camp. At least I put my name first, lol.
Well, I was a 3-1 favorite before the year began. The Stripper, whose biggest perceived insult to the community as far as I can tell is not flaming you but rather saying that shoving with 2 7 offsuit is a bad idea, is tough competition. Have to keep a leg up on the stripper. That time the (bad) pun was intended.
The reason I read your site is because of your unchecked bravado, never change. But you gotta stop writing about this boring ass battle you had with Mr. Nickel & his sidekick Dime Time. Go bust some more chumps already. Sorry, but it had to be said.
Point taken.
Actually, Matt, I didn't miss your point.
Actually, CJ, you completely and totally did, as evidenced by both of your comments being completely off the mark. Reread a few times, comment if/when you do get it.
It is the hallmark of the asshole to claim that he is misunderstood. You are not misunderstood. You are a jerk.
A misunderstood jerk though.
Yeah, I got that you were screwing around with the table when you were posting "blogger this" and "blogger that." It was even fun to insult you in the chat because I usually try to restrain myself. When you started insulting the play of the rest of the table, you crossed the line.
The million dollar question though is where is this line and who determines its location? It certainly wasn’t me, because I thought it was all in good fun. I didn’t realize how seriously you all took yourself, and how low everyone’s self confidence was.
After the last blogger tourney Iggy and others requested I cross your line. I assumed that all line drawing would be done by the host of the tournament, but apparently each person, other than me of course, has the right to draw their own line and get angry at anyone who crosses it. When I do it then it is wrong. How dare I have a line!?
Was it right to call the push with A8o? Possibly. Did all of your bully-raising put you in a position where you would have to call off a significant piece of your stack with a middling hand like A8o? Yes. A9 was just as likely as QJ in that spot and you know it. Pretend to omniscience all you want but you tied your own hands on the play; that you got sucked out on is karmic justice if not poker justice.
Not possibly. Yes. The call was correct. End of story. There really isn’t anything to debate about that question. The hallmark of poor players is the habit of making easy decisions into hard ones, don’t fall into that trap. The only bad play in the whole equation was the shove with QJ, which seems to go unmentioned.
If you think there is anything even remotely debatable about the call or the preflop raise then you don’t understand an aggressive style of play. Read Super System or its sequel, it is laid out for you there. The premise (and Doyle states it far better than I could so give it a read) is that the aggressive player does exactly what I did, steals a ton of chips then sticks all of those stolen chips in the pot against someone. Often when the chips go in the aggressive player is taking the worst of it, but it doesn’t matter, they are stolen chips anyway. Eventually they will stick all of those stolen chips in and suck out. Combine that with the penchant everyone at that table had for underplaying their hands preflop and overplaying them after (allowing me to repeatedly flop two pair with junk and get all in against a 3 outer, though unfortunately I lost one) it makes me a huge favorite to come out on top by playing that way.
As far as omniscience goes none is necessary, though if I were omniscient I would have folded and avoided the beat. I knew that the player was a weak one who was prone to shoving at me and not knowledgeable enough to realize that I am just going to call him and have him slightly beaten or dominated. I had that gut feeling that he had junk, and that one is wrong at most a couple percentage of the time. I play by that feeling 100% of the time, it rarely lets me down.
You are correct about the A9, though it isn’t really relevant. Giving him the range of hands I did, which couldn’t have been very far off of the mark given that he had QJ, it’s an easy call. Weak players always react to bullies by shoving with anything they can find, even when they are obviously going to just get called by a better hand, so I gave him a wide range of holdings. The suckout may be karma, but the shove was bad and the call was not even remotely debatable.
Yes, that is exactly what it means, but you are taking a very narrow view. It was a +EV call after a -EV raise. And is it as +EV if the guy is holding a bigger ace? A medium pair? He got lucky (philosophically, of course) that the guy was holding only QJ. He pats himself on the back because of the wide range of hands he thought the guy might have. Bravo. That makes the call look great in Poker Stove but not so much if you take a more realistic look at the guy's probable holdings. QJ was a lot less likely than hands that would have left him shaking his head after the call.So trying to blind steal with A 8 on the button is –EV? Talk about weak-tight. No wonder you don’t understand an aggressive style.
All that matters is what it looks like in Poker Stove. That’s it. In fact I will say it again. All that matters is what it looks like in Poker Stove. See the entry a few down where I linked to an article on the pokerstove.com site about being behind but really being ahead. If Stove says I am a coin flip against the range I figure him for then I am, from my perspective, a coin flip no matter what he actually has. Whether he rolls over AK or QJ or 66 is entirely irrelevant if the range I put him on was accurate and I acted correctly according to it.
If you disagree with my range of holdings, that is one thing, but given that he flipped over QJ (which is very close to the bottom of the range, only two hands below) I think it is fair to say that I was very accurate. He would have shoved any ace, any pair, any broadway. Even if you take out lower aces, low pairs, and some of the weaker broadways its still a good call.
You can't look at things from a results-oriented perspective. You are right that the fact that he turned over QJ in and of itself doesn’t make the call good, but by the same token the fact that he could have turned over AK doesn’t make it bad. Let’s suppose you are playing heads up and are dealt KK and you have only 5 big blinds. Your opponent raises you your whole stack, you call, and he rolls over AA. Does that make your all-in call with KK bad? Of course not. You put your opponent on a wide range of hands, most of which are a dog to KK, one of which isn’t. The fact that your opponent had AA doesn’t make your call with KK bad because in the long run your call with KK will show a profit, as he will usually not roll over aces. Your KK was a favorite over his range of holdings and you were getting over 1-1 odds so you called and were correct to do so. It’s the exact same with my A 8. It was about a coin flip against his range of holdings, but I was getting almost 2-1. Its not as profitable as KK, which is probably about 4-1 against any range of holdings, but its still profitable and therefore has to be made.
I don’t pat myself on the back for making that play, it was easy. I play against a lot of weak players like the guy who shoved QJ (do you think that was correct btw?) and know how they operate. Putting him on the range that I did took me no time at all. You may not believe this but I win a lot of money at poker (won 6 figures online last year) and the ability to do that is a large part of why. If you want to improve at poker you should try to understand fundamental concepts like how to use your opponents’ range of holdings and learn to apply them. It applies to tournaments and ring games, and if anything it is easier to apply to ring games because you don’t have to factor chip devaluation in.
ah, starting off the work day at 11pm. must be tough cranking out a living during the graveyard shift.
Well I woke up around 5 pm. The night shift is cool, but the tables break more and you have to do a bit more hopping. Still the games are better, if such a thing is possible, so its probably the best time to play.
There is such a thing as being right and wrong at the same time....and your play in the tournament was a classic example. Sure, you were reasonably sure you had a "pot odds" edge, but playing all-in on small edges is a sure way out of a tourney. In other words, definitely a no-brainer in a ring game, but awful tournament strategy.
You are wrong without any semblance of right. You must be one of the people who subscribes to the “Gus Hansen is just a lucky maniac” theory. He repeatedly puts in all of his chips with underdogs, and is correct to do so. Again read Super System’s no-limit hold'em section by Doyle Brunson for an explanation.
You subscribe to the Phil Hellmuth school of poker thought. If you would like to see a mathematic refutation of many plays Phil endorses read back through Paul Phillips’ blog. He shows points where Phil is giving up a lot of money, which may be why he hasn’t won a tourney since 1982, and why he is far from the most profitable player on the circuit.
Still Phil’s logic has its merits in tournaments with good structure. He could fold a hand that has a small edge and get more of an edge later by just stealing a lot of pots. For the most part his strategy has a lot of potential, though he often takes it to dangerously unprofitable extremes, in the $10k buy-in events. Folding what you know is a 4-1 favorite is never correct, no matter what the circumstances but folding small edges in a tournament where the stack sizes are deep can be.
This strategy however is entirely useless on Poker Stars in all but the first couple rounds. The blind structure doesn’t allow for enough post-flop play. You rapidly approach the point where the average stack is just a few big blinds and any action pot-commits you, making the game almost entirely a preflop one. I didn’t have the option of waiting for a bigger edge because the structure doesn’t give me the option. And I didn’t have the option of trying to steal a lot of pots because any raise preflop is liable to get shoved at, so I have to play much more carefully. In the early rounds of the WSOP it might be correct to fold 6-5 shots for your stack getting 13-10, in the middle rounds of a Stars tournament it isn’t an option.
Also if I simply let him push me off the hand it makes it much tougher for me to steal raise in the future. By calling him I am telling him and anyone watching that if they decide to play a hand it will be for their whole stack. This puts them in a very tough spot and me in a very profitable one. They now have to continue just letting me steal, or do something dumb like shove with QJ. They can either forfeit me their blinds or go in with a hand that is going to be an underdog. If they pick up a real hand like AK, well, its time to stick in all of the chips I stole and hope to get lucky with them. Rinse, repeat.
Posted by themaroon at February 9, 2005 12:37 PM
Comments
I agree with you that your call with A8 was correct, and your explanation is excellent as well. extempore has written a lot about this point, and basically he says "You have to take any edge you can, at any point." He's also shown that repeatedly shoving in your chips with just a 60/40 edge, will top the results of the best tournament players (given enough tournaments)
Posted by: Matt K at February 9, 2005 2:33 PM
'Forgive me if I don’t really lie awake at night worrying about what the “poker blogging community” thinks of me. '
Preach on brother. I said it before and I'll say it again, you have a "talent" for making friends :) Keep up the good work.
Posted by: Predator314 at February 9, 2005 3:08 PM
Just wanted to say I am a regular reader and that was a fantastic explanation of your play.
It will improve my game, and I'm going to read Super System 2 right now to improve it more.
Posted by: Jason at February 9, 2005 3:09 PM
I have a couple of points to make.
Regarding the play in question, I agree with your call and it was the correct action to take in that tournament.
With that said, I believe many people are having a problem with "how" you say things. You've got the protection of being behind a computer monitor to perhaps allow you to be more "honest" than you might in the real world.
Do you think that if you said what you thought in real life things would be any different. I've met many of the bloggers and their blogs are a very real extension of themselves. If yours is not, that's fine, but if it is, my guess is that you'd eventually piss off the wrong guy.
You don't have to worry about that online, and that may be your choice. But understand that you're dealing with real people with real feelings who aren't just avatars in an online poker game.
Of course, you can choose not to. I suspect you will make that choice, and that is fine too. Just understand that most of us will rally with each other in many situations. It's what friends do.
Posted by: BadBlood at February 9, 2005 3:33 PM
Excellent post. I hope no one at my tables reads it. :)
Watching the "blogging community" try to argue with you about poker strategy is like watching a weekend paintball player trying to debate military tactics with a career officer. I'm actually surprised you bother to explain this stuff at all, and I think it says a lot about you that you make the effort to educate other players. Those who whine about hurt feelings might do well to keep that in mind.
Posted by: Razorfold at February 9, 2005 3:51 PM
I recall one time you saying that you didn't like the tournament structure on Stars. What makes a good structure and what site do you think is best for tourneys?
Posted by: StB at February 9, 2005 4:09 PM
u r evil.
i just buried my best friends wife.
Posted by: iggy at February 9, 2005 8:40 PM
Matt > Iggy
Posted by: Any mouse at February 9, 2005 9:40 PM
I thought you didn't care what people think about you?
Posted by: I don't care what you say at February 9, 2005 11:25 PM
They have these people called gravediggers that do the burying for you. You should hire one. It's a lot easier than doing all that digging yourself.
Posted by: Random Guy at February 10, 2005 1:03 AM
Iggy,
First off:
I truly do feel sorry for you about your best friend's wife.
I hope you find the strength to help your friend with his loss.
However:
He has the right to respond, and if his response is true, then you shouldn't be throwing stones.
What are you doing reading this blog when you are in mourning anyways?
Posted by: To Iggy at February 10, 2005 8:41 AM
It still amazes me that:
1. People don't think that raising with A8 on the button is smart.
2. It cost Matt T1275 to call for a shot at a pot ultimately worth T3450, so he only needed about 37% equity against hands he put in the BB's re-raise zone. I'm certain that Poker Stove would say this was reasonable, especially given that the re-raiser was not tight, as had been shown earlier. It even turned out that Matt had the better hand.
3. If Matt lost, he still had 9 BB, far from crippled.
As for all the trash talk, I would've been personally insulted if Matt was at my table and DIDN'T trash talk. It's his bread and butter and one of the many reasons he isn't just another poker blog. Most of us were aware of this, or so I thought. A simple right-click Disable Chat would have done the job if it bugged you.
If anyone STILL, after all his explanation, disagrees with Matt on his raise and subsequent call, you're going to be stuck where you are until you figure it out. The decisions Matt made were correct, and it's not even close.
Posted by: Poker Nerd at February 10, 2005 9:51 AM
Gotta say, I side with Matt on this one. I was curious why the ganging up on Stripper By Night. I read her blog and saw nothing out of line. But he managed to drive the whol community against her. I was able to let that slide.
But, now, he attacks Matt for no reason. Iggy, grow up, dude.
Posted by: Former Iggy Fan at February 10, 2005 10:27 AM
Why is Iggy such a big swinging dick in the poker community? His blog is boring, very boring, and he has nothing to say of interest. He is a boring individual that should not be running a blog in the first place.
Posted by: phil at February 10, 2005 2:19 PM
here is this line and who determines its location?Here is a couple of simple one: when you call a player an idiot to his "face" you have crossed the line. It is a joke to say "blogs suck"; it is an insult to say "you are a monkey." Whether their play is good or bad or debatable is besides the point.
The premise is that the aggressive player does exactly what I did, steals a ton of chips then sticks all of those stolen chips in the pot against someone.Interesting point and one that I will give a lot of thought to. S/S has been languishing on my shelves for years for want of time to read it and an unwillingness to play for the stakes that would justify the commitment of time to give it a proper reading. As was Weak players always react to bullies by shoving with anything they can find, even when they are obviously going to just get called by a better hand, so I gave him a wide range of holdings. Cogent and worthwhile. For a jerk you are a very interesting analyst.
So trying to blind steal with A8 on the button is -EV? Mea culpa. I didn't recall that particular raise as being a button play. You had been raising aggressively from all positions throughout the game.
do you think [pushing QJ] was correct btw? Hell no. It was a bad play against a raiser with odds to call from behind and particularly bad when the caller would almost certainly be ahead.
I'll say it again: your demeanor is off-putting, but the poker analysis is thoughtful and engaging.
Posted by: ugarte at February 10, 2005 7:03 PM
You should allow html tags in your comments, maroon.
To read my last comment you should remember that the first sentence of each paragraph is a quote from the post above and my response follows.
Posted by: ugarte at February 10, 2005 7:09 PM
I will try to enable the HTML ASAP.
Posted by: Matt at February 10, 2005 9:49 PM
You said Iggy sees the poker community as a revenue source. Is that because of affiliate type activities. Also, I've been reading the guy's site mostly because of your argument with him. His site is duel, really duel, and he seems never to mention his own poker play or results. Is that because he has nothing worth reproting? What does the guy even play? Does he just make money off of his blog community?
Posted by: Phil at February 11, 2005 6:15 AM
dull
Posted by: phil at February 11, 2005 6:17 AM
God damn, that's some evil, ugly shit. Iggy behaves officiously causes Gods of Universe to send disease of retribution to best friend's wife causes death causes Iggy to rethink his life. Nice comment you anonymous Internet posting asshole. I may not have agreed with the way the whole Hammer controversy went down and find this A-8 one to be about as trivial, but nobody needs to rub the tragedies in someone's life in their face as a retort to a post you don't agree with. I especially loved the e-mail address up there. Seriously, this is just a game, albeit one a lot of us are obsessed with, and we all have different ideas and styles of playing, trash talking, etc. But going after the personal life of those playing is some seriously petty shit. Get a fucking grip.
Posted by: Tullymox at February 11, 2005 9:15 PM
It's good to know the class of readers that come here, Matt. That was perhaps the most ignorant shit I've ever read about anyone. I had reservations about removing your link, but not anymore.
Seriously, dude. Grow up.
Posted by: Sean at February 11, 2005 10:49 PM
The fact that there's been so much controversy over $20 let's-have-fun tournament is depressing. I don't have a problem with the way Matt played the hand. I don't have a problem with him trash-talking and belitting people. There's no law against it and there's no law against being an asshole. If you get bothered by players trash-talking just hit the block chat button and take that toothpick of a weapon out of his arsenal.
But after reading the comments above I want to go on record as saying that "Anymouse" and "Random Guy" are pieces of shit. Writing the stuff they did (in Anymouse's case, his email address) proves that and not having the balls to use their real names shows what kind of dickless wonders they are. I thought superstar poker players have iron balls, and these assholes don't have balls at all.
Matt, if these scumbags are the kind of readers you prefer your book isn't going to do too well, 'cause I doubt any of them would know what to do with a book besides wipe their ass with it.
Posted by: Mean Gene at February 12, 2005 1:07 PM
Mean Gene wrote:
Writing the stuff they did (in Anymouse's case, his email address) proves that and not having the balls to use their real names shows what kind of dickless wonders they are.
Something tells me your mother didn't name you "Mean Gene".
Now I realize that i'm also posting under a fake name and i'm sure that you say something to the effect of not haveing the balls and also being a "dickless wonder". This will just go to show the readers just how hypocritical people like "Mean Gene" can be. If he can't post with his first and last name, as well as address and social security number, why would anyone else?
"Mean Gene" also wrote:
Matt, if these scumbags are the kind of readers you prefer your book isn't going to do too well, 'cause I doubt any of them would know what to do with a book besides wipe their ass with it.
Wow, this is stupid on so many levels.
1st.. I seriously doubt that Matt has any preferance at all as to who reads his books, as long as people are paying for it.
2ns.. I seriously doubt Matt cares what the buyers of his book plan on doing with it, as long as they pay for it.
3rd.. I suspect that Matt would prefer that people bought his book and used it to wipe there asses. By doing this he is basically makeing money twice, once when they buy it... and then once again when they play with him after NOT reading and learning anything from his book.
Posted by: NiceGene at February 12, 2005 2:27 PM
Oy, what an idiot. I at least put my real email address and URL out there, unlike you, because you're a coward who's afraid to take responsibilty for his own loathsome statements.
That's all I'll say about this here, you know where to find me, shitbird.
Posted by: Mean Gene at February 12, 2005 6:38 PM