The Poker Chronicles

"Just so you know, nobody ever picks Jesus over a pool big enough for a volleyball net. It's never happened. It will never happen. It could never happen. Few people could even pick him over a cheeseburger. "

Plenty of individuals throughout history have renounced their riches for a life of servitude. Augustine, Francis of Assisi or Paul come to mind. There are plenty of other examples as well.

I don't think that's the point though. Maybe your problem is that Negreanu tries to talk about religion in one post and then his treasures in the next.

I am certainly not going to try to sway your opinion on religion, but picking a few quotes out of a 2000+ page book to point out the hypocrisy of someone does not really deliver much. The whole point of the Bible is to help people try to examine their human side and try to make them strive to be more like God.

Simply being rich does not make it impossible to achieve spirituality or a relationship with God.

Hell, I am not even a Bible thumper nor am I rich. But I think it is a little unfair when a peson who doesn't even believe in a God or religion tries to point out other's weaknesses as to why religion is stupid or flawed. Proving human imperfection does not debunk Christianity or any other religion.

Just my two cents.

Commandment #?
Thou shalt not kill.

but murderers get into heaven.

It's true that "many are called but few are chosen". It's not an easy road for anyone, but the
rich in assets can do it also, with out giving all
their things away.

Try not to use so broad a brush.

The bible also says, "judge not...".

I do enjoy your blog, pls keep posting.

Ps.
I'm not man of letters but, Proverbs is not considered "The word of God". They are words of wisdom from a man of God who is said to be the wisest ever. ie. they are rules of thumb not rules of law.

Hey! Only Christians may abuse bible quotes!

Matt

I was sorry to read about you giving up poker for a while. Your writing on the subject is insightful and hilarious, a rare combination. I'm a much improved player from a few years ago, in no small part due to your blog and your book.

One thing I've always been puzzled about though is your that you thank God at the beginning of your book whilst you always seem so anti-religious. Do you just disagree with the idea of organsied religion rather than a notion of a higher power?

Anyway, hope you keep up the writing

Regards

Andrew

"Just to clarify here, the Bible and Jesus are pretty clear on one thing: you can't be rich and a good Christian at the same time. You can be one or the other, or, I suppose, a hypocrite. "

Jesus says you can. The contradiction is resolved in Matthew 19:26.

"With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible"

I see you quoted Matthew 19:20. If only you had read a little farther...

What pisses me off about this creatine is how he always minimizes the average poker player. He is so high on himself it is out of control. At one time he was my favorite pro, but I can stand him and his bald head anymore! Some quotes that have irked me from his blog as well:

"I'm really looking forward to the WSOP this year. The schedule is much better than it's been in past years and I'm looking forward to playing some tournaments in games other than hold'em. Also, it'll be nice to be on a 5pm schedule for the tournamwnts. The tournaments I want to play are usually at 5pm which me allows me to enjoy the sun, and maybe even start golfing again during the day time. The way the WSOP is set up now, it's almost as though you have the A circuit and the B circuit. The B circuit would consist of all the $1000 and $1500 buy in events, while the A circuit would consist of the championship events with $5000 buy ins or more (with the exception of the $3000 Stud 8 or better.) It's one of the great aspects of the schedule as it appeals to the top professionals but it also gives the "little guy" a chance to be a part of the WSOP experience."

LITTLE GUY!?!?! Who the hell are you buddy? Those 70 million little guys helped you buy that 5000 square foot mansion. I'm Daniel Negreanu, I'm on the WSOP poker committee and I am a "TOP PROFESSIONAL." However, the only way I can win a bracelet again is to minimize the field by having it later in the day with a higher buy in, so I do not have to take bad beats from the "little guys" anymore.

I can't stand him...There are other quotes that have irked me in the past, but I do not feel like re-reading through his blog today. Doesn't he remember that a lot of the appeal of live tournaments for the "LITTLE GUY" is to be able to play alongside the "TOP PROFESSIONALS" which is unlike any other hobby or sport? Daniel, I bow to you and I thank you for my opprotunity to be "part of the WSOP experience" on the "B circuit" because it really is all about you and the other top pros on the "A circuit!" Ugh, Can't Stand Him!

Worshipping Negreanu...
Jealousy..
Judgemental..

Lumping religion into specifics seems shortsighted..Striving for achievement and professing one's love for accomplishment hardly seems worth condemning. God gives us the tools to succeed. Even a carpenter is allowed to enjoy his craft.
Love your blog..I'm sure God does too..
Hooch

I think you are using things a little out of context here. They're are many, many people who are rich and are Christians. The first person that comes to my mind is the football player Kurt Warner... Yes, he is filthy rich; but one of the best Christians that I know... True, I've only met him once... but I know enough poeple that do know him (such as the person that heads his foundation).

A simple question.. How do you become a Christion (i.e saved)... Let's let here:

Romans 10:9-10 “That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
Just confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead and you will be saved.

It is true that you can't worship both God and money.. I don't think that is what DN is necessarily doing here. Is he boasting.... probably.. Is he a sinner... definitely (as am I).. Is he rich.. obviously... Is he a Christian.. couldn't tell you.. For now, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

This blog entry was great. Apparently there's no reason to follow any of the "rules of thumb" in the bible since you go to heaven either way. Seems like it would be really hard NOT to get into heaven. It reminds me of watching The Sopranos or Godfather and how everyone is a strict Catholic who believes in heaven despite brutally murdering all of their enemies on the side. I don't think any truly religious people ever believe they'll go to hell no matter what they do. The 9/11 hijackers were more convinced that they were going to heaven than anyone.

Lots of rationalizing here. I love it. Nonetheless, my thesis stands.
Jesus and other characters in the Bible are 100% clear on this. Luxury is bad, you should instead spend the money on the poor. There’s no ambiguity, that’s the Christian thing to do. Ask yourself the old bumper sticker “WWJD” quote. There may be some lack of clarity as to whether or not you can be rich and get into heaven, but what you are supposed to do with that money you used to buy the Golden Tee machine is crystal clear. If you don’t think it is, you’re rationalizing. More power to you I guess.
And to the person who asked, I use God in the Aristotelian sense, to mean whatever person/force/circumstances outside of my control got me to where I am today. I realize that even the best of us are where we are due mostly to luck. Whether it’s a giant smiling white guy with a beard and a son or just the big bang, something has been very good to me.

Nothing gets the juices flowing like a discussion on religion or politics. At least DN puts it out there for debate. He's never shied away from talking about religion, or anything else, for that matter. I give him credit for speaking his mind. What's so wrong with that?

its hilarious. you can pull out passages which are entirely unambiguous and still people are commenting how you dont have things right. the religious mind is endlessly inventive in order to keep its delusions.

I admire him for speaking his mind. And unlike a lot of born-agains, he's relatively tolerable. He's content to be a Christian himself and not force everyone else into it, and that's admirable.

But there's a tremendous conflict between Christianity and consumerism, and he's hardcore into both. I'd just love to know how he resolves that in his own mind.

"its hilarious. you can pull out passages which are entirely unambiguous and still people are commenting how you dont have things right. the religious mind is endlessly inventive in order to keep its delusions.

Posted by: dragonystic at April 18, 2007 3:42 PM"

That's because you can pull out passages from other places in the Bible that are totally unambiguous in the opposite direction. The Bible is full of contradictions.

Please do so. I'd love to see one that says you should spend your money on luxuries rather than give it to the poor.

The bible is full of contradictions (yet another reason I can't understand the widespread devotion to it)but I've never seen any on this. I'm not an expert though, I'll gladly be proven wrong.

What is the purpose of condemning D.N. for his commentary? Is the "thesis" a sledgehammer against Christianity or D.N.? Does he have any worthiness due to his notoriety? I imagine he is quite charitable not only monetarily but with time and effort. Are you railing essentially against religion or the affluent and successful?
This is starting to sound like something out of a VaTech. massacre headline. Do cynics hate God and the affluent?

That's the rare comment that I let stand solely because of its stupidity. I usually delete them for that.

I despise neither God nor the affluent, I despise hypocrisy. Preaching one thing and doing the exact opposite is what I dislike. The guiding principles of Christianity and affluence are mutually exclusive.

I love your blog, and I realize Negreanu at times can be intolerable, but what I really want to know is how bored you have to be to analyze another person's blog to this extent. You say your blogs take a while to write so I can't imagine why somebody as brilliant as you clearly are would waste so much time on something as unimportant as this.

PS Religion should be illegal. 9/11, The Holocaust, etc never would have occurred if not for religion.

Matt and others interested if you haven't already read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. A sophisticated (often hilarious)book that shows better than any other source I have come across just how embarrassing it is for any non-retard to be a devoted Christian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_God_Delusion

"Please do so. I'd love to see one that says you should spend your money on luxuries rather than give it to the poor."

Okay, here you go. This is the best one I can find on luxuries over poor people. If you want contradictions to "Thou Shalt Not Kill" I can find you 100 better ones.

Matthew 26:6-13

Jesus Anointed at Bethany

While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of a man known as Simon the Leper, a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table.
When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. "Why this waste?" they asked. 9"This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor."

Aware of this, Jesus said to them, "Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me. The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me. When she poured this perfume on my body, she did it to prepare me for burial. I tell you the truth, wherever this gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her."

Matt:

One tension these comments seem to bring out is the difference between belief in an all-powerful God of some sort, and belief in all the tenents of a particular religion. The latter is what many people profess to, but i think the former better describes the true core beliefs of most people.

I also think this explains a lot of the strong reaction to your perfectly reasonable thesis. People are surely hypocrites about the teachings and ethics of Jesus, but they are so used to general attacks on religion from true atheists that they are reflexively responding to that instead of the charges of hyprocrisy. This all becomes very clear when the interlocutor is not an atheist, but an agnostic, as you appear to be.

cheers
matt

Matt--

We met during the Main Event last summer (I was working for PokerStars and PokerWorks). As a Christian and poker player, I've written a good bit about the challenges of being a Christian and playing poker. Putting Negreanu aside for a second, I agree with much of what you say here and would like to broaden it a bit. One thing Jesus taught, as you point out, has to do with priorities in one's life. Is He first, or is family? Is He first, or are material things. This is less about rhetoric and more about how we make daily decisions as well as the big decisions in our lives. Making choices, whether based on our faith or values, does not necessarily guarantee perfect outcomes.

To those critical of your use of Biblical passages to make your observations and points, I would disagree with their comments. The verses you present speak quite clearly Jesus' teachings regarding putting Him before material things. I don't know Daniel, so I cannot comment on him or his faith. You do illustrate the difficulty people can have with Christians who make decisions or say things that may be inconsistent with their beliefs. As for me, being a Christian doesn't mean having all the answers, it is more a continual journey of strengthening a relationship with God and figuring out what I'm supposed to do daily with my life when nothing is perfect and everything doesn't turn out great.

Thanks for the post for the lively comments. Hope to see you again this summer.

Matt:

If you haven't read Sam Harris's "The End of Faith," you need to drop everything and run, not walk, to the bookstore to get a copy. I am so confident that you will like it that I hereby offer you a full indemnity on your purchase. If you buy it and read it but don't like it, I'll refund the purchase price to you.

I've never engaged Danny in a discussion of Christianity. I will say that he's a great guy in person: funny, witty, approachable, and smart. He's a bit overstylish for my taste, but he compensates for that by being self-deprecating more often that not. I've never understood the DN haters; he has never once been anything less than pleasant to me, and his RGP deconstruction of Annie Duke was a post for the ages.

Oh yeah! When's our trigger date for the Full Tilt arrest bet?

you just lost a reader. moron.

Fascinating post and comments.

Vonnegut's approach to people who believed deeply despite the many intellectual obstacles that challenge poses was to envy them but to leave their peace of mind undisturbed.

When asked if he ever tried to discuss the irrationality (or hypocrisy) of the wealthy devout with his Christian wife he responded no. When asked why, the answer was simple. "I loved her."

If I were a religious person I might respond to the obvious logic of your post with a divinely inspired, "yes, but..." as well.

As it is, I am working my own new house, love to buy stuff too, and still hope I'll go to Heaven (assuming it's out there). So who am I to throw a stone?

Firstly, to have an intellectually significant discussion on specific biblical quotes, the preceding and subsequent five verses almost have to be included for context. Secondly, I consider myself non-retarded yet don't find the quotes you chose to contain anywhere near an overwhelming PROHIBITION of ownership, materialism or affluence. I see an encouragement toward spirituality, charity, selflessness and sacrifice and an admonition of cherishing material goods, gross selfishness and arrogance based on wealth. There are no dogmatic commands here and the synoptic gospel reference to the camel and needle is missing context. It is also being overlooked that Jesus himself stated his ministerial priorities (do unto others, love God) and that much of his time was spent chastising the Pharisees, especially for their excessively strict adherence to the letter of the law. After your study of the Bible, I find it near impossible to believe...nay I do not believe that you think Jesus would have wanted me to sell all of my possessions forcing my family and I to live homeless and hungry on the streets of San Diego.

Presbyterians believe that the chief end of man is to "glorify God and enjoy Him forever." This is how I try to approach the Bible. The "New Testament" is a tool for this relationship, not a condemnation, not a laundry list of do's and don’ts, and not something that inflicts undue strain or pain. God isn't looking for ways to keep us out, but for ways to beckon us in.

Howard, I don't remember but I will check. I'm pretty sure it's yours. Moral here: never bet against an attorney on legal matters you know little about.

Marcus: good. Lost one moron, gained 20 non-morons. Win/win.

Iakaris, I take the same approach in my relationships with most people I know. I'm more than anything just curious how a guy as bright as Daniel can mentally reconcile luxury with Jesus' message.

I personally have come to the conclusion that if there is a heaven, God either doesn't want me there, or it's full of atheists, because he sure made the dumbest people on Earth the most devout, and the smartest the least. Education and religion seem to be almost inversely proportional. Over 60% of scientists are atheists/agnostics, compared to 8% of the general population.

Ray: I never interpreted Jesus in such a way as to suggest anyone should drive their family into homelessness. I'd love to hear the contexts in which those quotes don't sound like a repudiation of luxury though. Selflessness and sacrifice and owning a Golden Tee machine seem mutually exclusive to me.

"Selflessness and sacrifice and owning a Golden Tee machine seem mutually exclusive to me...."

That is your assumption but not one that finds strong support in the Bible and not a case made very well by the quotes you chose. I must posit that you have missed or are purposely missing the theme of Jesus' message as a whole. It is crystal clear that He is against spiritual exactitude, against using a meter stick to measure worthiness and against mucking up the definition of Christian with considerations of: how many golden tees does he have? Oops, he owns two machines - he's out. How much did he tithe last year? Oops, only 8% of his salary and not 15% - he's out. Oops, he spent an extra 10k on that Lexus instead of buying the materials for a Habitat for Humanity home in Mexico - he's out.

This is the exactitude Jesus rallied against and the precision and meticulousness we are to avoid in finding our spiritual footing and making our way in the world. That he expresses a general theme of good-will and charity versus an unbending prescription for exactly how his followers should behave is really quite clear to anyone who has studied the "New Testament" extensively and honestly.

What I find more interesting Matt, is that while U.S. Christians have become undeniably and verifiably more laissez-faire about social norms, values and the practicing of other faiths over the past 17-20 years, the general finger-pointing and calling-out of Christians by yourself and others increases. How about giving some props Matt for to evolving and increasingly reformed U.S. Christian body?

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on those quotes, because they seem crystal clear to me. I took a look at them online with preceding paragraphs and I still don't see how they can be viewed as anything less than a repudiation of luxury in favor of charity. If you do, I'd love to hear an explanation.

I don't give "props" to harmful things for evolving and becoming even more harmful. And I'm not so sure they have evolved. Odd you should mention that term as well, as I am engaged to a Biology teacher who regularly has to deal with parents who want their children to remain ignorant about the way the universe works due to their misguided beliefs.

dont get started on evolutions just yet.

The book which you are quoting Proverbs, was written by King Solomon, a very rich guy. As far as I know he never even tried to shed all his wealth. I assume he considered all he had to be owned by God. He would there for consider him self a steward of all he "possesed".

btw you might want to strike the last paragraph
on you personal bolg, im beeting that is a fellony.

I seem to remember some story about Solomon having his brother decapitated for marrying someone he disproved of. Also much of what is written about Solomon (and Jewish history in general) has been proven impossible by archaeologists.

Anyway, there's a very serious difference between being wealthy and buying a Golden Tee machine and a pool with a volleyball net. The latter is wasteful, which Jesus sure would seem to frown upon. If you won a million and asked yourself "what would Jesus do with this" and come to the conclusion that he would buy a bigger house and some arcade games, it's pretty easy to see you're just plain wrong.

If you are interested in reading intelligently written works in support of Christianity, read any of C.S. Lewis' apologist works. The Problem of Pain is one that comes to mind. Most of those books also have the benefit of being fairly short and to-the-point.

He was both a Christian and one of the more brilliant minds of the 20th century.

"If you won a million and asked yourself "what would Jesus do with this" and come to the conclusion that he would buy a bigger house and some arcade games, it's pretty easy to see you're just plain wrong."

There are several references in the Bible to Jesus giving the 'green light' to luxury items - perfume, wine, etc. These are not must haves, so realize that Jesus is not condemning having items that are considered luxury. Not that I am into picking one line out of book, but Jesus did turn water into wine. Certainly not a must have.

Why don't you just let people that consider themselves religious worry about what is considered excessive? I could understand if DN was trying to convert you but last I checked, he didn't post religious rants on your blog.

Also, still waiting for you to admit that people have renounced their riches to devote their life to God (Augustine, Paul, Francis of Assisi, etc.) Or perhaps you don't want to admit that you made an incorrect statement?

That new house that you bought must have some real nice views. Considering it is all glass, I am sure it lets you have a great insight into all matters.

You're splitting hairs at this point. Always good in an argument when your opponent does that. Same when they start making personal attacks about glass houses.

I'm more than happy to let people do whatever they wish, and I'm not preaching anything to anyone. I'm just curious sometimes how people reconcile things like that. Does anyone not consider a Golden Tee machine excessive? There's a pretty big difference between wine at a wedding or a splash of perfume and a pool with a volleyball net.

And I suppose I was technically wrong about people giving up riches for Jesus, but given the fact that only a few can be named in all of history (and none in modern times) I'm functionally correct. It's so close to never as to basically be never.

And Jeff D, I'll check that out when I have some spare time. Almost all books described to me as an intelligent argument for any religion (such as Strobel's Case for a Creator) are so full of logical errors that anyone who took even a high school philosophy course can call BS on them 100 times with no trouble. I'd expect better from Lewis though, so I'll check it out.

First, sorry if you think that my 'glass house' comment was a personal attack. From an objective point of view, you are very quick to point out the faults in others - be it that they are morons, fat people, religious people, etc. It was meant as an observation, not as an attack.

In regards to splitting hairs... Well, agree to disagree. I established that Jesus accepted certain luxuries. You agreed. At this point, you are choosing to try to define excessive luxury. You do not know any better than I what the threshold is when it comes to Jesus.

Lastly, there are examples of modern day people who have renounced their riches for God. Examples include John Wood. There are plenty of others. Obviously, they fall into the slim minority but it does happen.

One last comment... You mention that "Education and religion seem to be almost inversely proportional. Over 60% of scientists are atheists/agnostics, compared to 8% of the general population." Define who is falling into this scientist definition? This sure seems like a case of making up a stat to try and make a point.

Besides, even if we were to use your stat, 40% of 'scientists' then do believe in God. A 60/40 split doesn't really seem like a crushing amount of to show that 'smart' people know better than to believe in God.

Well, actually a tiny fraction of people do take that stuff to heart. My grandmother, for instance, became a nun and took the vow of poverty very seriously. (Although she often fought with the other nuns who would spend their money on luxurious stuff for the monastery.) She worked in maximum security prisons for 25 years. However, my grandmother was a very unusual nun. She was OK with gays and pro abortion.

You have it so wrong. You can be rich and be a Christian. If Jesus is number one is your life it does not member if you are rich or poor. You are so wrong. No were does Jesus say if you are rich you can not believe in me. There are many rick people who are Christians.

And I'm sure you've read the bible cover to cover and understand the context of the passages you quoted. I'm not a big fan of the N-Man, but back off. YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

Matt: If you ever need to reassure yourself that you should keep writing, revisit this post and the responses to it. Great stuff.

FWIW, I am a born-again Christian who has read the Bible "cover to cover" (to use one of your critics' phrases) numerous times. I could not agrees with you more: Most so-called Christians live deluded, hypocritical lives. They take the simplest, clearest, least ambiguous words of Christ and his disciples and construct remarkably elaborate rationalizations to get around them.

The transparency of these rationalizations never ceases to amaze me, nor does the fervor of those who make them.

Thank you for allowing these fools to trumpet their own hypocrisy.

Such lies and half-truths are laughable when viewed in the context of DN and his Golden Tee machine ("Golden Tee" has a Biblical ring to it, doesn't it?).

But they become downright horrific when you consider that these very same rationalizations sometimes result in masses of similarly deluded morons electing like-minded hypocrites president and bombing the fuck out of helpless (but oil-rich) Middle Eastern countries, killing and maiming hundreds of thousands, touching off a civil war, and quite possibly hastening the Apocalypse.

Which, I guess they would contend, is merely fulfilling the prophecy of Revelations.

and yet YOU sit here in Judgement...how christian

I most certainly never claimed to be a Christian.

Interesting comments. Personally, I'm was rapt to see DN put his beliefs on the table. And if it means disagreeing with them, hey, no problem. I'm not quite sure if being rich and enjoying your success has to be mutually exclusive to God, though, but then that's just me. I believe wholeheartedly in the Big Man, but I don't follow the religious doctrine. So the Bible talk doesn't do it for me. Regardless, I'm thankful to DN for bringing it up, and thanks also, Matt, for being so up-front with your thoughts on your blog. It's all very interesting stuff!

So i would just like to say that it is clear that it is the obsession with wealth is inappropriate not the wealth itself. Some how i dont think anyone in America is guilty of loving something in the world to much. It is hypocritical to think that you can be perfect, the entire message of the gospels is that of forgiveness because we are not perfect. We should obviously not strive for sin, but to say that Daniel is somehow evil because he is wealthy is outrageous. He may love some of his things more than he should, he surely has sinned, he is also surely forgiven if he is a Christian as he claimed. If you don't love something in this world more than you should, if you havent sinned, please ignore this post.

I think I am a little late to this heated discussion, but I'm glad I found this blog. Thanks for posting this dicussion Matt, although we have clearly different views.

Have you checked out C.S. Lewis yet? I'd be interested to know your thoughts on his works.

But my quick two cents on D.N. It's interesting to see that he professes his faith in God while clearly living in luxury that is unfathomable to the avereage American. While I don't quite know what to make of that, I am not sure that I'd call it "antithetical" to what Christ preached.

Someone here wrote about being a good steward of what God has given us (I personally believe that everything I have is not actually mine, but entrusted to me by God... we can disagress on that point). Is D.N. being a good steward of his money? I guess he can answer that for himself.

As for all the other questions you have about the Bible and Christianity being outdated/irrelevant to the modern people, I HIGHLY recommend Tim Keller. www.redeemer.Com. Excellent speaker, briiliant mind. No Bible thumping. Able to talk to Christians and non-Christians.

Re: ORIGINAL BLOG

You wrote this blog so therefore you must have:

A) A computer

B) Access to the internet.

Therefore you are in the top 10% of wealthiest people in the world. Probably much further up the scale actually. If we were to judge everyone, the way you have just judged Negreanu...well, we'd all be stuffed.
If he is a little to greedy, what's it to you?
He gives plenty to charities, and we should rejoice in that. Bill Gates gave 5 million to Live 8. Considering his net value is 26 Billion its not much. But im just happy that 5 million dollars is going to people who need it.

I'm missing what's so hard to understand. The point was that he is hypocritical. He advocates Christianity, then does the opposite of what Chris preached.

I'm have no religion, so right or wrong, my buying a pool and a basketball hoop would not be hypocritical.

I don't think it's wrong to buy anything for what it's worth. I do think it's wrong to preach one thing and do another.